Talk:SorryNotSorry/@comment-4441793-20160329161058
Continued to debate with a Gracevas fan. At least, it's not overly heated and disrespectful. In 'BOLD '''is what they said, in regular text are my responses ----------------------. I’m just going to address several important points here. Sorry for the late reply. it’s always interesting to see why someone ships a certain pairing. I’m always interested in intelligent conversation, even if it is something as stupid as a factitious teen relationships. As long as the actors are not chastised for whomever they ship, we should be free to discuss. As someone attacking a specific actor for not shipping what said person doesn’t like it just stupid. We’re better than that. They’re simply playing a character and their characters actions are simply out of their hands, as long as it’s believable as a viewer, I could care less whom they ship personally. I completely agree. Grace does not have a crush on Zig. Her facial reactions told that, as well as I believe her facial reactions tell a different story when it comes to her feelings for Zoë. So much has happened between them, which includes it really seeming like Grace has feelings beyond friendship for Zoë. How can she allow herself, if she truly knew she was straight the entire time to do what she did with Zoë? That makes zero sense to me. That’s why I believe there is more to Gracevas than what we’ve been given. How I interpret the entire “breakup scene,” is that Grace can’t simply say she can’t be with Zoë because of her CF. She needs to find some other excuse, and it’s as simple as she’s not into Zoë. This in her mind allows her to still be friends with Zoë and there would be no pressure of a relationship in the future. Remember she said, “this is why I don’t do relationships,” and Zoë still went after a relationship with her, Grace simply needs another excuse. As cold as it was, I believe there is more to it, especially from a TV standpoint. Their story is not over, whether it be a relationship or a friendship. Grace and Zoë will interact in 15B, as Zoë is simply the only one now that knows about Grace’s CF and Grace, much like Tristan are the two directly related to Zoë’s sexuality arc, which isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. I did acknowledge that the ‘crush on Zig part’ could be a lie; in fact, I’m at least 50% sure it was. It makes sense to me, her forcing herself to ‘love’ a very persistent Zoe when in truth, she’s straight(just my theory, I’m not saying the writers don’t have other plans) because given the viewers and onscreen characters assumptions of her based on her appearance, she’s often thought to be a lesbian, and she probably thinks she’s undesirable in the eyes of boys. Gay people have attempted sex/relationships with the opposite sex many, many times in real life(I speak from personal experience here) and on television, so I see no reason why the reverse can’t occur. Yeah, it’s extremely unusual, if not completely non-existent, for a straight person to try and force themselves to be gay especially in a harsh society that deems it ‘unnatural and sinful’. But I explained my theory in Grace’s case; when people(Degrassi viewers and her onscreen peers such as Zoe, Miles, Tristan, possibly even Zig, Maya and Tiny) have been pre-judging her to be gay and the only one who’s ever stepped up to show any romantic interest in her happened to be a female, what is Grace to think? What is Grace to do? How is Grace to feel? Your interpretations of it are very well-thought out(by far the most rational and sensible interpretation of the Gracevas relationship I have EVER seen in this fandom, I’ll give you that) but I just see it totally different for all the reasons I’ve explained above. Plus, why would the writers include so many presumptuous lines from Miles and Tristan to Zoe where Grace’s sexual orientation is concerned if it was supposed to be ‘obvious’ and if there wasn’t some sort of twist? Oh, and while we’re it, I want to address your Jane Vaughn point. It’s not that being a tomboy/not so feminine girl and still being straight is what I find original. It’s the pretending to be gay because of a stereotype-assigning society/social system, feeling pressured to just ‘go along with it’ and the lack of belief that a GUY would be interested in a less-than-feminine girl is what I find creative and original IF the writers go that route. Jane’s sexuality has never been questioned(aside from one random rude joke from Holly J when she was on the boys’ football team) or made into a storyline where SHE was questioning her sexuality. It’s been clear as day she was straight given that 95% of her run on the show was spent being involved with Spinner. It’s never even been a question, with Grace there is, and that’s what I find intriguing. Just wanted to clarify. Zoë never seemed into Zig, I’m sorry at this point it was very one sided. I would have liked to have seen it be more than just surface, and then maybe I could have been behind a future relationship between them, or a relationship that should have happened between them in 14, it was set up, but never happened. Instead the writers abandoned them for both Zaya and the potential of Gracevas. I’m not saying Zoë treated him like shit, but she’s honestly never been as invested in anything like she has been with Grace. I’m also a Ziles shipper, and I love Gracevas and I’m not simply shipping Zoë and Grace to keep her from Miles or Zig, because I would never not like the idea of Miles and Zoë, yet again that’s only been surface. To me what makes the most sense for Zoë, especially now is Grace. Again, I see it completely different. Zoe was into Zig but was afraid to love and trust him due to a history of heartbreak and worse, sexual abuse. She was not used to being treated with genuine respect, patience, kindness, understanding and all the other things Zig has shown her….which is WHY I love the side of Zig that I’ve seen only Zoe bring out. She had a wall up but nonetheless, Zig still busted his ass to show her that he was for real, WITHOUT being as demanding, self-centered and self-entitled as he has always acted with Maya(which I’ll get into later). I remember how bright, sunny and full of love Zoe’s smile was when Shay/Lola/Jack were urging her on about a kiss that she and Zig were ‘supposed’ to share later on. The look in her face showed an unusual vulnerability(though it is often thought be seen when she’s with Grace) in Zoe. It was like she was so happy in that moment yet too AFRAID to believe it could be true. That’s how I read it all over her face. Then the school catches fire, Winston traps/confronts her, she’s about to face the music regarding her crimes over the Degrassi Nudes situation etc. and she’s suddenly in DESPAIR. The guilt sets in, and that HURT look on her face when she pushed Zig away telling him that he deserved better than her. Surely, if it all ultimately came down to ‘Zoe was just not that into Zig’, she would have told him right away. It’s not like her to fake anything just to spare someone’s feelings no matter how nice they’re being. Hell, I don’t even think she’s faking it with Grace; I just feel like they’re BOTH lonely, desperate, discouraged and confused. And to clear up my ‘confused’ comment, that is NOT a biphobic comment. I believe bisexuality/pansexuality are just as valid as heterosexuality/homosexuality and I 100% buy that MILES is bisexual/pansexual. It’s his feelings for TRISTAN that I don’t buy, not boys in general. But I won’t get into all that either. LOL We already went from Gracevas to Zaya, no need to drag Triles into it, unless you absolutely HAVE to defend Triles, for which I’d be happy to respond. Anyway, back to the main point, I think Zoe and Zig have found ‘the one’ in each other but have come to a point where neither feel worthy and refuse to believe in it. Yeah, the writers did drop Zoemund for Zaya/Gracevas in 14B but I’ve explained many, many times why they pulled that shit, and frankly, you and I are already discussing way too many things at once lol. Not complaining though. Okay, clearly you’re not team Zaya, and I’m honestly neutral on Zaya. Zig has been with Maya for awhile, even as a friend. We’ve seen him at his lowest and his highest, that’s how relationships work, and that’s what we see with Zaya. Both Zig and Maya are bound to mess up at times, and to be great at times. So I don’t really understand when people argue that he’s better with Zoë. Where have we seen that? He never even really shared too much screen time with her, that we’d be able to see that. If he was to be with Zoë I’m sure we’d see the good and bad with her, like we have with Maya. Okay, so you ship Zoëmund? Yet you just listed the reasons as to why Zig is awful. I’m absolutely NOT team Zaya, that’s right. Hell no. Never was(well, briefly I liked the idea in 11B when they had their FIRST chance and blew it) and never will be. I hate them even more than Triles and Gracevas; to me, they’re the worst of the three. And yeah, I listed all the reasons why Zig is awful to/with MAYA but have provided reasons why I think he’s better to/with Zoe. It’s no different than the demons the fandom makes Miles and Zoe out to be when they’re with Maya and Zig, respectively, as opposed to how they view them when they are with Tristan and Grace, respectively. We’re all going to analyze sides of a particular character that comes out differently depending on the ship in question; that’s inevitable. Sure enough though, I may love and appreciate the side of Zig that I’ve seen when he’s with Zoe but if that were to ever change upon (possible)canonization of the Zoemund relationship, I won’t ship it anymore. It’s just that simple. Plus, any tolerance I had left for Zig’s character would be DEAD(he would be DEAD to me) considering that he’s brought me to a point where I literally can’t stand to even LOOK at him unless it has to do with Zoe. I’m just keeping it real. Just speaking in terms of romance, I obviously don’t have a problem with his friendships with Tiny and Grace. Bullied two boyfriends, okay, and the fact that bullied one to death is honestly excessive, you make it seem as if Zig knew his behavior would lead to Campbell’s suicide. Zig is extremely flawed, and he felt genuinely guilty for quite some time about Campbell. It’s not Zig’s fault that Cam died. Not in the sense that he KNEW Cam would kill himself or that he was TRYING to accomplish just that. But I feel like he should bear some responsibility because the fact remains, if he hadn’t said what he said, Cam would have lived to see another day. Yes, something or someone else could have just as easily pushed Cam to his limits, but it just happened to be Zig. That’s the bottom line. I don’t care if Cam whooped Zig’s ass the previous day. I don’t care that Cam made a snarky remark that started the argument on the steps that led to Zig saying what he said. None of those would have been an issue if Zig had RESPECTED Maya’s wishes and if Zig had RESPECTED another boy’s relationship instead of imposing his own feelings on them in the first place. He started it. Right, he felt guilty(and at the time I actually bought his bullshit) but still decided to be just as disrespectful to Miles and his relationship with Maya. Which I’m RIGHT now about to get into… Also, Miles pulled a gun on Zig once, so I wouldn’t necessaly say he was the only bully in that situation. Again, Zig started it. He beat Miles up WHERE Cam took his final breath at no less. But that’s neither here or there. Miles swung at him first, yes, but that was AFTER Zig disrespected/insulted Maya to Miles. Maya didn’t see or hear this, and Zig stans refuse to acknowledge this. But that’s what happened. Let’s go back to the beginning, I remember Miles TRYING to be cordial with Zig when they first met BECAUSE he cared about Maya that much, but Zig gave him his ass to kiss. Zig started it and I will never get over how much the fans and Maya put it all on Miles. With the fans it’s even worse, because there were things that Maya didn’t see with her own eyes. I prayed forever for that shit to come to light, but nope. Smh. The whole thing was unfair but simply because Zaya is the fan favorite, they(or rather just Zig) were able to get away with all of that. That’s the bottom line. He didn’t nearly rape her, Maya handled herself extremely well in that situation, I used to never be a Maya fan, but Next Class quickly changed that, and how she handled herself and said no to Zig in that situation I was very proud of. That moment was once again Zig being oblivious, he was taking the assertive nature from what Tiny had said he should do, both he and Tiny really needed to understand consent and that’s what Grace was for, and once he learned, he’s better for it He did though. He kept touching her and pushing for sex when she kept saying NO; she even had to get violent with him to get him to stop. There is NOTHING that would ever make me believe that Zig is ignorant in terms of what consent entails. Not after he put that Gloria chick in her place by defending Zoe who was a rape victim. So, as stupid as Zig ACTS sometimes, I will never believe he was stupid enough to think “''Okay, it’s not okay if a stranger forces sex onto a girl, but it’s a boyfriend’s given right to”. Bottom line, he was self-entitled and demanding, that’s how he’s he’s always been with Maya from 12B to Next Class. I’m not going to blame Tiny either for Zig’s stupidity. Let’s not forget that the man who RAISED Tiny was beating and raping Bianca for half of season 11. Tiny was dead wrong and thankfully, Grace educated his ass, but his attitude towards consent makes way more sense than Zig’s. It was all on Zig, not Tiny. As for the cheating that was awful, and I’m really upset it was so easy for him to do, I think it came from his extreme insecurity and him believing for some stupid reason that their relationship was over. Oh, Zig WAS insecure. No doubt. Anyone would be when they have to face the fact that they were always a LAST resort, a rebound or something someone merely settled for. So, he felt threatened by the music and even by a perfectly innocent platonic friendship between Maya and Jonah, because Maya HAS been known to ignore/push Zig aside when something better caught her attention(Campbell AND Miles). It also shows Zig doesn’t TRUST her either. It’s way deeper than him just believing hes not good enough for Maya. He’s only been able to ‘have’ her in very vulnerable situations, never when she was in healthy relationship(yes, I believe both Camaya and Matlingsworth were FINE until Zig imposed on them) and never when she had positive interests and good things going for her in life like her MUSIC. By fucking Zoe and allowing Zoe to trigger his insecurities, he was just looking for a reason to ACCELERATE the inevitable, Maya leaving his ass when he was no longer of any use to her. As she’s done before. So, Zig was RIGHT to be insecure. He knew what time it was. I don’t think Maya would have cheated on him with Jonah but she certainly would have outgrown Zig in due time. But yet you believe that he won’t do all of these things if he’s in a relationship with Zoë? I’m just interested, as he’s clearly shown he can and will do these things. Well, given everything I just explained about the side of Zig that Zoe brings out, I have reason to have FAITH that he’d continue to treat her better than Maya if they were to ever become official. But if he doesn’t, fuck him. And fuck Zoemund too, I’d have no problem dropping the ship if he cheats. It all remains to be seen though. Many Anti-Zaya people have used the age old phrase “If he cheated with you, he’d cheat on you” after the whole Zori situation. Zaya fans didn’t believe it until it HAPPENED. So, if they were entitled to their beliefes until proven otherwise, it’s no different for me as a Zoemund shipper.